Recommendations for gigabit switches?

[Joseph Bishay]

Good day,

I hope everyone is well.

I am in the process of moving our school to a new facility, and I need
to order our network switches. Everything will be running at gigabit
speed so I'm looking for some good recommendations on hardware. Based
on ntop, we move about 20 TB of data per month but I expect that to
grow to 30 TB in the new facility. We will have about 60 thin clients
in that new building so I will need several switches.

What do you think?

Thank you
Joseph

[Jim Kinney]

Don't go cheap on the high port count portions. Netgear looks great but
tends to buckle under load. Cisco is solid but $$$$$$$$$! ouch!

There are several middle tier brands that are fine. The things to looks for
are command line management and not just a web gui. With cli tools you can
poll from the ltsp servers for switch port locations of a mac and use that
to set up many rules like default printers and availability of applications
(some teachers are OK with puzzle games, others are not).

At 30TB/mo, you only need a big gig switch to split out to the classrooms
then 100M/1G-uplink in the classrooms. Most schools seem to have only 1
cat5e line per room. With only 60 clients a single decent server with 16G
RAM will drive the entire school. Think 8 cores in the server. I did this
in 2007 with 4 cores per server and 8GB ram and could run 100 clients per
server with the caveat that extensive flash use would bog things down
badly.

Post by Joseph Bishay
Good day,
I hope everyone is well.
I am in the process of moving our school to a new facility, and I need
to order our network switches. Everything will be running at gigabit
speed so I'm looking for some good recommendations on hardware. Based
on ntop, we move about 20 TB of data per month but I expect that to
grow to 30 TB in the new facility. We will have about 60 thin clients
in that new building so I will need several switches.
What do you think?
Thank you
Joseph
_______________________________________________
K12OSN mailing list
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn
For more info see <http://www.k12os.org>

--
--
James P. Kinney III

As long as the general population is passive, apathetic, diverted to
consumerism or hatred of the vulnerable, then the powerful can do as they
please, and those who survive will be left to contemplate the outcome.
- *2011 Noam Chomsky

http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
*

[Jeff Siddall]

Post by Jim Kinney
Don't go cheap on the high port count portions. Netgear looks great but
tends to buckle under load. Cisco is solid but $$$$$$$$$! ouch!

I used Netgear ProSafe smart switches, not because they are great but
because they are cheap and they stand behind them with a lifetime
warranty. Good thing too because I have RMA'd a few of them!

Bottom line is you won't likely find a better 24 port gig smart switch
for ~$200, or a better 24 port PoE smart switch (12 PoE ports) for ~$250.

Be aware they don't have a CLI but the web interface is OK for
infrequent use.

I have a GE connected servers, some GE clients and a bunch of FE clients
and never had any performance issues.

I am not saying you should buy Netgear, just that there is at least one
person out there that has used them successfully in an LTSP environment.

Jeff

[Les Mikesell]

Post by Jeff Siddall

Post by Jim Kinney
Don't go cheap on the high port count portions. Netgear looks great but
tends to buckle under load. Cisco is solid but $$$$$$$$$! ouch!

I used Netgear ProSafe smart switches, not because they are great but
because they are cheap and they stand behind them with a lifetime warranty.
 Good thing too because I have RMA'd a few of them!
Bottom line is you won't likely find a better 24 port gig smart switch for
~$200, or a better 24 port PoE smart switch (12 PoE ports) for ~$250.
Be aware they don't have a CLI but the web interface is OK for infrequent
use.
I have a GE connected servers, some GE clients and a bunch of FE clients and
never had any performance issues.
I am not saying you should buy Netgear, just that there is at least one
person out there that has used them successfully in an LTSP environment.

I've used some older Dell GB switches that have been reliable. But,
for this scale you could probably use the kind that have a couple of
GBIC connections and daisy-chain the gig link from the server to
switch to switch with the rest of the switch ports at 100M.

[John Oligario]

What would you rather have, a solid network or pulling a switch out every
few months?

-----Original Message-----
From: k12osn-***@redhat.com [mailto:k12osn-***@redhat.com] On Behalf
Of Les Mikesell
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:48 AM
To: Support list for open source software in schools.
Subject: Re: [K12OSN] Recommendations for gigabit switches?

Post by Jeff Siddall

Post by Jim Kinney
Don't go cheap on the high port count portions. Netgear looks great
but tends to buckle under load. Cisco is solid but $$$$$$$$$! ouch!

I used Netgear ProSafe smart switches, not because they are great but
because they are cheap and they stand behind them with a lifetime warranty.
 Good thing too because I have RMA'd a few of them!
Bottom line is you won't likely find a better 24 port gig smart switch
for ~$200, or a better 24 port PoE smart switch (12 PoE ports) for ~$250.
Be aware they don't have a CLI but the web interface is OK for
infrequent use.
I have a GE connected servers, some GE clients and a bunch of FE
clients and never had any performance issues.
I am not saying you should buy Netgear, just that there is at least
one person out there that has used them successfully in an LTSP

environment.

I've used some older Dell GB switches that have been reliable. But,
for this scale you could probably use the kind that have a couple of GBIC
connections and daisy-chain the gig link from the server to switch to switch
with the rest of the switch ports at 100M.

[Andrew Fisk]

Did you take a look at http://www.enterasys.com/

Enterprise quality without the "market leader" premium.


Andy
Spitfire Computer Services
406 Beaver Street
Sewickley, PA 15143
Phone [phone]
***@spitcomp.com
www.spitcomp.com

Post by John Oligario
What would you rather have, a solid network or pulling a switch out every
few months?
-----Original Message-----
Of Les Mikesell
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:48 AM
To: Support list for open source software in schools.
Subject: Re: [K12OSN] Recommendations for gigabit switches?

Post by Jeff Siddall

Post by Jim Kinney
Don't go cheap on the high port count portions. Netgear looks great
but tends to buckle under load. Cisco is solid but $$$$$$$$$! ouch!

I used Netgear ProSafe smart switches, not because they are great but
because they are cheap and they stand behind them with a lifetime

warranty.

Post by Jeff Siddall
Good thing too because I have RMA'd a few of them!
Bottom line is you won't likely find a better 24 port gig smart switch
for ~$200, or a better 24 port PoE smart switch (12 PoE ports) for ~$250.
Be aware they don't have a CLI but the web interface is OK for
infrequent use.
I have a GE connected servers, some GE clients and a bunch of FE
clients and never had any performance issues.
I am not saying you should buy Netgear, just that there is at least
one person out there that has used them successfully in an LTSP

environment.
I've used some older Dell GB switches that have been reliable. But,
for this scale you could probably use the kind that have a couple of GBIC
connections and daisy-chain the gig link from the server to switch to switch
with the rest of the switch ports at 100M.
--
Les Mikesell
_______________________________________________
K12OSN mailing list
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn
For more info see <http://www.k12os.org>
_______________________________________________
K12OSN mailing list
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn
For more info see <http://www.k12os.org>

[Les Mikesell]

Post by John Oligario
What would you rather have, a solid network or pulling a switch out every
few months?

Can't say I've ever seen a switch model that failed 'frequently'.
Most electronic stuff either breaks immediately (even the expensive
Ciscos) or works for years - with rare exceptions, of course.

[Joseph Bishay]

Hello,

Post by John Oligario
What would you rather have, a solid network or pulling a switch out every
few months?

Certainly I would want a solid network. Is there a brand you're
suggesting that would result in pulling a switch out every few months?

Thank you
Joseph

[Jim Kinney]

yeah.... The price difference between switch install and never touch again
and switch install plus replace every so often is about the cost of
diagnostic time for a single outage from a failed switch.

A 24 port Gig switch with management that costs less than $1k is a pretty
low end pile of hardware. Yes, it can push 1000Mbps but not across all
ports at the same time 5days a week for 8 hours a day.

That said, I've used Dell and 3Com gear for years with no problems. I've
used netgear as a disposable test-rig setup or for my personal stuff where
professional uptime is not being measured.

I'm not a Cisco fan as their price far exceeds their value.

Post by John Oligario
What would you rather have, a solid network or pulling a switch out every
few months?
-----Original Message-----
Of Les Mikesell
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:48 AM
To: Support list for open source software in schools.
Subject: Re: [K12OSN] Recommendations for gigabit switches?

Post by Jeff Siddall

Post by Jim Kinney
Don't go cheap on the high port count portions. Netgear looks great
but tends to buckle under load. Cisco is solid but $$$$$$$$$! ouch!

I used Netgear ProSafe smart switches, not because they are great but
because they are cheap and they stand behind them with a lifetime

warranty.

Post by Jeff Siddall
Good thing too because I have RMA'd a few of them!
Bottom line is you won't likely find a better 24 port gig smart switch
for ~$200, or a better 24 port PoE smart switch (12 PoE ports) for ~$250.
Be aware they don't have a CLI but the web interface is OK for
infrequent use.
I have a GE connected servers, some GE clients and a bunch of FE
clients and never had any performance issues.
I am not saying you should buy Netgear, just that there is at least
one person out there that has used them successfully in an LTSP

environment.
I've used some older Dell GB switches that have been reliable. But,
for this scale you could probably use the kind that have a couple of GBIC
connections and daisy-chain the gig link from the server to switch to switch
with the rest of the switch ports at 100M.
--
Les Mikesell
_______________________________________________
K12OSN mailing list
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn
For more info see <http://www.k12os.org>
_______________________________________________
K12OSN mailing list
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn
For more info see <http://www.k12os.org>

--
--
James P. Kinney III

As long as the general population is passive, apathetic, diverted to
consumerism or hatred of the vulnerable, then the powerful can do as they
please, and those who survive will be left to contemplate the outcome.
- *2011 Noam Chomsky

http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
*

[Jeff Siddall]

Post by Jim Kinney
yeah.... The price difference between switch install and never touch
again and switch install plus replace every so often is about the cost
of diagnostic time for a single outage from a failed switch.

That all depends on how much diagnostic time costs. I volunteer so that
comes pretty cheap!

Post by Jim Kinney
A 24 port Gig switch with management that costs less than $1k is a
pretty low end pile of hardware. Yes, it can push 1000Mbps but not
across all ports at the same time 5days a week for 8 hours a day.

Agreed, and I have never pushed a gig through every port of any cheap
switch. I would argue if that is what you are trying to do you already
have the wrong box and should have installed 10 GE.

Post by Jim Kinney
I'm not a Cisco fan as their price far exceeds their value.

Agree there. Consider Avaya stuff, like the 4524GT. True enterprise
grade stuff, better efficiency, non-blocking, 10 GE support, stackable,
lifetime warranty.

Jeff

[Jim Kinney]

Post by Jeff Siddall

Post by Jim Kinney
yeah.... The price difference between switch install and never touch
again and switch install plus replace every so often is about the cost
of diagnostic time for a single outage from a failed switch.

That all depends on how much diagnostic time costs. I volunteer so that
comes pretty cheap!

well.... Every minute you spend fixing broken stuff is a minute lost from
adding new hotness :-)

Post by Jeff Siddall
A 24 port Gig switch with management that costs less than $1k is a

Post by Jim Kinney
pretty low end pile of hardware. Yes, it can push 1000Mbps but not
across all ports at the same time 5days a week for 8 hours a day.

Agreed, and I have never pushed a gig through every port of any cheap
switch. I would argue if that is what you are trying to do you already
have the wrong box and should have installed 10 GE.

server w/ x4 1Gb nics bonded -> 24 port switch w/ each port to a classroom
(20) -> 1Gb uplink port in classroom switch with 10-12 clients plus teacher
and printer

I pushed a few bits down the pipe :-)

Post by Jeff Siddall
I'm not a Cisco fan as their price far exceeds their value.
Agree there. Consider Avaya stuff, like the 4524GT. True enterprise
grade stuff, better efficiency, non-blocking, 10 GE support, stackable,
lifetime warranty.
Jeff
______________________________**_________________
K12OSN mailing list
https://www.redhat.com/**mailman/listinfo/k12osn<https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn>
For more info see <http://www.k12os.org>

--
--
James P. Kinney III

As long as the general population is passive, apathetic, diverted to
consumerism or hatred of the vulnerable, then the powerful can do as they
please, and those who survive will be left to contemplate the outcome.
- *2011 Noam Chomsky

http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
*

[Joseph Bishay]

Hello,

Post by Jim Kinney
server w/ x4 1Gb nics bonded -> 24 port switch w/ each port to a classroom
(20) -> 1Gb uplink port in classroom switch with 10-12 clients plus teacher
and printer

So this is a very similar setup we have, except that every network
jack in each classroom has been "run home" back to the network room so
there's no need for the switches in each classroom.

In your example, is the switch a managed or unmanaged switch? I guess
this is where I'm stuck. It appears to me in that case you described,
there is not a need for a managed switch. Or am I missing something?

Thank you
Joseph

[John Oligario]

Here is a place to look:
http://www.enterprisestorageforum.com/technology/features/article.php/11192_
2211021_1

an unmanaged switch is 'dumb' data in, data out. You have no control of
ports, of systems not being able to talk with each other, ie ftp mail sql
etc

-----Original Message-----
From: k12osn-***@redhat.com [mailto:k12osn-***@redhat.com] On Behalf
Of Joseph Bishay
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 2:12 PM
To: Support list for open source software in schools.
Subject: Re: [K12OSN] Recommendations for gigabit switches?

Hello,

Post by Jim Kinney
server w/ x4 1Gb nics bonded -> 24 port switch w/ each port to a classroom
(20) -> 1Gb uplink port in classroom switch with 10-12 clients plus
teacher and printer

So this is a very similar setup we have, except that every network jack in
each classroom has been "run home" back to the network room so there's no
need for the switches in each classroom.

In your example, is the switch a managed or unmanaged switch? I guess this
is where I'm stuck. It appears to me in that case you described, there is
not a need for a managed switch. Or am I missing something?

Thank you
Joseph

_______________________________________________
K12OSN mailing list
***@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn
For more info see <http://www.k12os.org>

[Joseph Bishay]

Hello,

Post by John Oligario
http://www.enterprisestorageforum.com/technology/features/article.php/11192_
2211021_1
an unmanaged switch is 'dumb' data in, data out. You have no control of
ports, of systems not being able to talk with each other, ie ftp mail sql
etc

I do understand the different between the unmanaged vs. managed
switches in terms of controls, vlans, etc. I guess my question more
accurately is, in an LTSP environment (thin clients connecting to
server) why do I need a managed server?

thank you
Joseph

[Jeff Siddall]

Post by Joseph Bishay
I do understand the different between the unmanaged vs. managed
switches in terms of controls, vlans, etc. I guess my question more
accurately is, in an LTSP environment (thin clients connecting to
server) why do I need a managed server?

If you have a flat network and don't want to do anything special then
yes, you can go entirely unmanaged.

However, even in a relatively simple environment, there are significant
benefits to a managed switch, which I have listed below in my personal
order of importance:

1. You can segregate traffic. I have "privileged" ports that can reach
the LTSP server plus other stuff like printers and file servers. I also
have public ports that are much more locked down. VLANs enable this
type capability. You can also do handy stuff like using VLANs to allow
separate client images. If you configure the DHCP server with different
options for different subnets (VLANs) then you can change how a client
boots simply by changing it's switch port VLAN. Because this is all
done from an IP management interface there are never cables to pull to
make changes so you can do pretty much anything remotely. The related
aspect of this is that you can also use VLANs in linux to allow a server
to talk to multiple VLANs over a single physical NIC.

2. As others also noted, you can track down MAC addresses, find
misbehaving NICs, traffic statistics, etc.


3. Fancy stuff, like LAG (link aggregation), or anything else that
requires any amount of configuration, simply can't be done on an
unmanaged switch.

4. If you get a L3 (routing) switch then you don't have to use servers
for routing. L3 switches offer much higher performance than software
routers.

There are many more benefits also but that should give you some ideas.

Jeff

[Les Mikesell]

Post by John Oligario
an unmanaged switch is 'dumb' data in, data out. You have no control of
ports, of systems not being able to talk with each other, ie ftp mail sql
etc

Which, about 99% of the time is all a switch should be doing unless
you are trunking VLANS. The down side of the unmanaged variety is
mostly that you can't get any diagnostics or bandwidth statistics from
them.

[Jim Kinney]

All switches in this install were managed switches. For our purposes, we
didn't need managed in the classroom. We had to use switches in the
classroom as there was only a single connection per room.

We needed managed in the server closet so we could find the printers and
each client in individual rooms. Too bad the switches only had web gui
tools. Command line is easier to script with than having to craft a pile of
screen scrapers.

Note: what ever switch goes in the classroom it should be SILENT! The
rackmount monsters we had would horribly loud and I felt they disrupted the
classroom.

I had scripts that required knowledge of where each client was to set
things like default printer. Also wanted to do some hacking on the
teacher-tool and make it useable in the large-scale environment so teacher
A could not accidentally (or otherwise) observe or control a student in
room B. Was also looking at things like having teacher set "preferred
application sets" so floating teachers could get their specialty app and
block distraction apps by loging in and requesting their "setup" in their
new room. The system would then unset automagically when that teacher
logged out of that classroom.

Stuff like that.

with a managed switch you can track what mac is on what port plus other
stupid network tricks.. That lets finding a wayward client easy. The
clients on my project had a bar code with the mac address so we had a list
of all them.

Post by Joseph Bishay
Hello,

Post by Jim Kinney
server w/ x4 1Gb nics bonded -> 24 port switch w/ each port to a

classroom

Post by Jim Kinney
(20) -> 1Gb uplink port in classroom switch with 10-12 clients plus

teacher

Post by Jim Kinney
and printer

So this is a very similar setup we have, except that every network
jack in each classroom has been "run home" back to the network room so
there's no need for the switches in each classroom.
In your example, is the switch a managed or unmanaged switch? I guess
this is where I'm stuck. It appears to me in that case you described,
there is not a need for a managed switch. Or am I missing something?
Thank you
Joseph
_______________________________________________
K12OSN mailing list
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn
For more info see <http://www.k12os.org>

--
--
James P. Kinney III

As long as the general population is passive, apathetic, diverted to
consumerism or hatred of the vulnerable, then the powerful can do as they
please, and those who survive will be left to contemplate the outcome.
- *2011 Noam Chomsky

http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
*